Postpartum University® Podcast

EP 164 Breastfeeding, Shame, and Better IBCLC Support with Christy Jo Hendricks

• Maranda Bower, Postpartum Nutrition Specialist • Episode 164

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Maranda chats with Christy Jo Hendricks, IBCLC, to delve into the complexities of breastfeeding, postpartum health, and the challenges faced by new mothers. 
With years of experience and a passion for supporting families, Christy Jo shares valuable insights into the world of lactation consulting and the need for informed support.

In this episode, we're sharing: 

  1. (02:22) The Importance of Support Beyond Breastfeeding
  2. (06:48) Discrepancy Between Breastfeeding Intentions and Reality
  3. (13:33) Challenges in Accessing Reliable Information
  4. (16:43) Variability in Lactation Consultant Training and Practices
  5. (21:23) Navigating the Search for Support


To learn more about Christy Jo's work and access valuable resources, visit her website at lactationuniversity.com. 
Join us in advocating for comprehensive, evidence-based support for breastfeeding families and promoting a culture of inclusivity and understanding in the postpartum period.

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Maranda Bower:

Depression, anxiety and autoimmune symptoms after birth is not how it's supposed to be. There is a much better way, and I'm here to show you how to do just that. Hey, my friend, I'm Miranda Bauer, a mother to four kids and a biology student turned scientist, obsessed with changing the world through postpartum care. Join us as we talk to mothers and the providers who serve them and getting evidence-based information that actually supports the mind, body and soul in the years after birth. Hey, everyone, I tell you what I am so, so excited, because I have been wanting to do this interview for a really long time. We have been trying to make it happen and finally it is here today. I have Christy Jo Hendricks. She is an IBCLC, which is a lactation consultant. She's a CLE, a childbirth educator and doula. She's a published author, international speaker and inventor, and I literally I cannot wait for this conversation. Actually, we were just sitting here chatting and I was like you know what we, we gotta, we gotta press record. So welcome, I'm so excited you're here.

Christie Jo Hendricks:

Thank you so much, miranda, and thank you for the work you're doing. It's. It's interesting. We were just talking about how important it is for us to kind of take the reins and support families, because we can't expect anybody else to do it because it's not getting done. So I appreciate your work and I appreciate your passion.

Maranda Bower:

Thank you so much, and you know there's so many personal experiences that you've recently gone through and I have recently gone through. That is just really heartbreaking actually in terms of the medical world and we were just talking about this as well how we're going to have to be the ones to really stand up and say the things that are really hard to lead the change and, as frustrating as that is, it's so absolutely necessary and I think we're going to just open this up and get the big white elephant out of the room right now. We know the significance of breastfeeding so many of us do. The benefits are astronomical and I don't want to spend time going into all of those because I feel like that would be a whole episode times 10.

Christie Jo Hendricks:

Right.

Maranda Bower:

One of the topics that I hear so often that I feel needs to be addressed. I hear moms say, you know, I stopped breastfeeding and it improved my mental health, or fed is best. It's not just breastfeeding, and I know I just brought up two really big topics here. There's lots to impact, but really it's not the stopping of breastfeeding, it's the lack of support you needed to feel good or successful or feel like you're nourishing your baby. And there's so much internal shame that we carry as women, as mothers, that the moment we say something like fed is best and maybe we weren't able to breastfeed or we didn't have the support I was one of them. I had to stop breastfeeding and using formula and I tell you the shame that pops up from that and then we feel like, oh, this person is shaming us. I just really want to unpack all of that and get your words of wisdom on that topic.

Christie Jo Hendricks:

Well, we probably don't have enough time. In one podcast you started out with a doozy. There is a lot in what you just explained and what you shared and I'm sorry you felt that way. Society does not equip us to be successful in so many areas and I don't feel like any parent. You know they're not the ones that were not successful. We just weren't there to provide the resources. You know the affirmation and I don't pretend to know what's right for any of the families I serve. I don't know their situations, I don't know why they are choosing what they choose and I don't need to know. You know, really it's none of my business If they open up to me. You know, I feel very honored to have that information. Sometimes I'm able to give resources, you know, and help them process. You know things that have happened to them or that they're going through. So I find that, as a very unique place to be and position to hold and sometimes in this world, right if we're dealing with people during this transitional time. It's very fragile, it's very emotional and I think our skill and just loving on people will go a long way.

Christie Jo Hendricks:

But I would like to, you know, talk a little bit about, like even the phrases fat is best or breast is best. Really, I like what Dr Amy Brown says and she says informed is best. Beautiful, right. If you have all the information, you can make the best decision for you, and I love that. I think sometimes if someone's really struggling and having a difficult time and they reach out and we just have this phrase that we've memorized, that is best, it doesn't really answer anything, it doesn't really show our support. And, on the same token, if someone's struggling and realizing they can't breastfeed or they're choosing not to breastfeed and we say breast is best, we're minimizing their position as a parent and their choices and their autonomy. So I think both of those phrases probably should be shelved and I think we should probably reach out for the informed as best. I like what that says and it's kind of something I've tried to adopt.

Maranda Bower:

I love this so much. It's such a beautiful phrase and I really do feel the warmth that comes from that. It's like oh, wait a second. And I think it tells so many of the stories that you had just shared here, like there's so much more nuances and that so many people don't understand the stories and the things that we go through and the lack of support that we have while we're going through it as well. And it's not just about I want to say this too not just about what happens in the moment. It's also, you know, breastfeeding has to also do with our past, the way we were raised, our experiences, our traumas that we've experienced. All of that really plays a role in how we feel and breastfeeding our babies or not breastfeeding our babies, and so, you know, the wound here is massive. So thank you for sharing that new language that's so beautiful. I'm curious what percentage of the population really wants to breastfeed and what are? What are those statistics end up being? You know, three, six months, nine months later, what are the actual numbers?

Christie Jo Hendricks:

Yeah, that's a great question. We see, when people are doing intake forms and stating, you know their preferences, about 86.7%, almost 87% of our population want to breastfeed. And so you know it's not the parents that are failing, it's society that's failing them. It's you know, when we're looking statistically, you know the six months mark, we're under 25% and that's a national average. So you have some places that are in the single digits and so you're sitting there wondering if that large of a percentage want to breastfeed, then shouldn't close to that number be breastfeeding? I mean, obviously there's going to be things where our body doesn't cooperate or, you know, we might have one thing in mind and then we make a U-turn and all of those things are fine, but it's ridiculous to think that we have a huge percentage, the majority of our population. They've heard about breastfeeding, you know. Maybe they've been exposed to it or they've read a book, and within days those numbers drop off. And that's what makes me sad. I'm not saying let's find another 13% and convince them. I'm saying if we have that many people that are saying this is really important to me and we're not figuring out what's going on, and one of the concerns I have is if our body is not working in any other capacity, we try to find a solution.

Christie Jo Hendricks:

Even if somebody is not producing enough milk or maybe there is a hormonal imbalance or or you know different conditions that can be, you know, experienced. We don't just dismiss it and say here's formula. That's like if somebody you know had a surgery, we don't go through therapy or anything, we just say here's a wheelchair, you know, we're not going to fix your issue. It's like no women's health demands better. You know the decisions people have about feeding their infants. It demands, you know, a little bit of investigation instead of just a dismissal. So if we see that percentage and those numbers, I think would grow if we had more education and if we had more resources. But some people decide not to breastfeed just because they've heard the horror stories that there is no help or or all the myths that it will cause your breasts to sag or you know all of those things that that they've been told. So I think education is the key, and prenatal education I think is is an important time to get that information to our families.

Maranda Bower:

For sure. I remember having being pregnant with my my first, and right around the third trimester I was sent by the manufacturer tons of formula bottles and and cases and it was like welcome to motherhood, here's all your formula. And I remember thinking what in the world, why would I need this? And I was so frustrated because I really wanted a breastfeed. I threw them all away, while my mom took all of them out of the trash when I wasn't looking and stored them away. And so when I ended up having really rough breastfeeding journey it was two weeks in my nipples are bleeding, he's not latching. I was an emotional wreck over it all and in physical pain and my baby's hungry. And my mom pulls those out and says here you go, I saved them for you.

Maranda Bower:

And I felt like the entire time it was it was you're gonna fail, no matter what you do, no matter how you try, it's not gonna work anyway. And here's what we have for you. And I seriously, in that moment I was like this is not the way it's gonna be. I'm gonna do this and I'm going to work through it. And it took some time and it took a lot of help, but we did it and we managed to breastfeed well over a year, but I could have very well said that's exactly what I needed right now and that's where I feel like society is at. It's like, oh, we know it's hard and we know you want to, but likely it's just not going to work out. And so here you go, here's the easy button.

Christie Jo Hendricks:

It's so interesting, miranda, that you recognize that, though we call that predatory marketing, right, they're preying on these new parents. I didn't know that was the case, and so, with my first baby, I was actually an English teacher at the time, I was not in the health field at all, and so I was getting these magazines and.

Christie Jo Hendricks:

I was getting all of these free giveaways and I thought oh, my goodness how exciting I get to be a mom for the first time and these companies are sending me all this stuff and I kept it all no-transcript. What they don't know I didn't. And so of course my sister gave me some information. Sisters are great for those things and I got a little bit of an education from her. And then I pivoted into this field because I thought people deserve to have the information or they can't make an informed decision, and so I'm glad for the families that recognize that that is predatory marketing.

Christie Jo Hendricks:

You know it's all advertising. They don't give things away for free. They know there's a return on their mail outs and that information is available for free, but sometimes good lactation information, evidence-based articles, journals. I pay a fee for those things and most of the population is not going out and spending an annual subscription, you know, to get good information about breastfeeding. So that's why I think it's important for professionals to read the information, and then we'll create the memes right. We'll make the clickbait because it's not available to everybody and I think that's a travesty. That bad information, you know inaccurate, sells people. All of that's free, but good evidence-based information you almost have to dig for it and sometimes you have to pay for it and invest in it.

Maranda Bower:

Isn't that so sad? I mean, we gatekeep and I talk about this so often, especially in women's healthcare that we have really made it so impossible to take care of our own bodies because we've been fed so much lies, so much information, and then we're told all of the time that our bodies are way too complicated because we have these things called hormones. Told all of the time that our bodies are way too complicated because we have these things called hormones, and so to be able to figure out what's going on is just impossible. So don't even try, you're going to fail. Your body's broken, Like all of these things that we're constantly told.

Maranda Bower:

And I feel like this just feeds right into those messages over and over and over again. And then, of course, you're doing it in a time where we're so vulnerable and everything that we're learning and taking in, because we've got the nervous system changes that happen after having a baby, we've got the brain and developmental changes that are occurring in our brain as mothers, that are shifting and changing, where we are literally rewiring our brain to believe we're not enough, it's not okay. We're reinforcing those things over and over and over again. It's just incredibly sad and frustrating and I think in the end we have to realize that it is not difficult, it is not complicated. We have people out there who really do wanna support us, but we have to go seek those people in order to make that happen, because it's not readily available, because that's just not what our world is set up to make money absolutely you know what?

Maranda Bower:

I mean, and so there's no money in you breastfeeding, right?

Christie Jo Hendricks:

there's no money in breasts the way we use them. I mean there's so yeah, hamburgers, you can tell anything else with breasts, but we don't in breasts the way we use them. I mean there's hamburgers, you can sell anything else with breasts, but we don't make money the way we use them.

Maranda Bower:

Oh, okay, that's. That's hysterical. Hey, I'm going to be a hundred percent straight with you. The postpartum world is changing right now and I know you feel it. It's in the politics, our community spaces. There is an urgent need to implement a different approach to postpartum health. If you're an alternative provider or postpartum advocate, you need to be with us in the Postpartum University. Pro Membership Get the method, the tools, the handouts, the advanced trainings and so much more to not only help your clients and your business grow, but to help you grow too. Marketwatch says that the afterbirth services and nutrition and support is set for extraordinary growth by 2030. Don't miss your opportunity to help women and families who desperately need your holistic support. Go to wwwpostpartumucom. We're accepting registrations right now and we can't wait to see you there.

Maranda Bower:

Okay, here's another white elephant. I love lactation consultants. You have been such a huge influence as well in in the whole field. But we also recognize and we got to say this that they're not all created equal and there's so many in the field that aren't using up-to-date practices. And we've all and I've I've heard the horror stories and mainly I'm I'm in the work. I've been doing this work for over 15 years now, and so I get the privilege of hearing so many stories and many of them are not so great, like I saw a lactation consultant and they said this and then my supply dropped or they dismissed how I felt about X, y, z. Can you shed some light on this, because I really feel that you are changing that in this field.

Christie Jo Hendricks:

I see the problem, I see a need and I'm trying to meet that need. That's one of the reasons I started Lactation University, because there are so many gaps. When you become an IBCLC, of course, there's different pathways, there's different requirements. You have to have you know the 14 college courses. One of those college courses, of course, is anatomy. You can take a course on the anatomy of the foot and meet that requirement. So, even though there's 14 college courses, those might not really have much to do with lactation. You know. Specifically, you just now have the requirement to get five hours of communication. That started actually in 2021. So they finally recognized IBLCE saying, look, we should know how to talk to people. That should have been like a priority from day one. And, of course, if you certified prior to 2021, it was not a requirement. So those people that are recertifying still might not know about adult learning styles and communication and open-ended questions and compassion and empathy. You know all of those things that we would really like to see as a requirement.

Christie Jo Hendricks:

The next thing is you have to have a thousand clinical hours. If you're doing pathway one, which is the most common pathway, those clinical hours can all be gained in the exact same facility in the exact same situation under the exact same facility, in the exact same situation, under the exact same scenario. So you might have, for instance, an RN that works in the NICU, so every single one of her clients are going to be expressing similar circumstances compared to someone who works at WIC, and all of their clients are going to be healthy, full-term babies up to age five, and all of their clients are going to be healthy, full-term babies up to age five. So you might not have a really good foundation with a variety of clients that you're going to see. And then, on top of that, you have to have 95 lactation-specific hours. There's no requirement of what courses you have to take. There is a blueprint on IBLCE's website that says we think you should know these things, but you can get all 90 hours and tongue tie. And how would that help you in every other situation? So I always recommend you take a course that's going to walk you through all the different aspects of lactation. That's at least going to give you a little bit of a foundation so you recognize what you're able to do.

Christie Jo Hendricks:

And then for years there were things that I referred to more advanced and better versed IBCLCs than myself and then I would ask my clients can I come with you? You know, can I be the fly on the wall? Can I learn, Can I grow? One of the things you have to do when you recertify is have 75 hours of lactation, specific educational, like webinars and things like that. I had hundreds, just because I feel like I'm responsible to know these things, because I'm teaching people and so, you know, hitting the minimum.

Christie Jo Hendricks:

It's like with any career sometimes we get busy. I know there are IBCLCs that don't feel like they have the time, you know, to commit you know to extra education and if it doesn't really change their status or their income, you know why invest, you know, in so many of those things. So it's like with registered nurses right, you don't have to have a lactation background and our nurses are on the front lines when it comes to lactation support. So sometimes they're just going off their own experiences. Some people have done the work to invest in more training because they understand that responsibility. Work to invest in more training because they understand that responsibility. So there's several questions. I would ask an IV CLC to make sure they are up to date, that they are sharing the same information.

Christie Jo Hendricks:

I hear the same stories, miranda, and it makes me so sad. I hear lactation consultants that are still walking into postpartum rooms and handling the birthing parent's breast and shoving the baby on. That has been, you know, put put away as the way to attach a baby for probably 10 years now and it's still happening. So those things break my heart because we were not looking at the biological norm of the baby. We're not respecting those babies instincts that they're born with. They have primitive reflexes. It's absolutely amazing when we put that mom and baby together and see what they are capable of doing. I read a quote a couple of weeks ago and it said humans are the only mammals that question our ability to birth and breastfeed our babies.

Maranda Bower:

So true and okay. So two questions arise from this how do we find somebody who understands this information and knows this and will be able to support us best in our own personal journeys? And where do we find this information?

Christie Jo Hendricks:

Right, right, one of the best places. Surprise, surprise, it's gonna be like your mom's groups. You know some of those. We kind of put down the idea of social media. But mom's talk, you know, referrals. I get a lot of my referrals from people who Some of those we kind of put down the idea of social media, but moms talk, you know referrals. I get a lot of my referrals from people who you know have appreciated the way I've served them and they pass my name on.

Christie Jo Hendricks:

I also would recommend you ask the IBCLC do they have a good network? Are they still getting mentored? You know, do they have someone that they can refer you to if it's outside of what they're used to dealing with every day? There are some people that are more skilled and specifics.

Christie Jo Hendricks:

I really think it's frustrating that all IBCLCs are not required to basically deal with a lot of the basic things that are out there. I mean, when we talk about let's find an IBCLC that can help with bottle refusal or let's find an IBCLC that can, you know, help with latch, I'm like shouldn't every IBCLC? That's like saying let's find an RN that can, that can use an IV. It's like wait. There's just some things we should all know how to do. But there are some things like some people are really good at working with induced lactation and they, without even looking things up, they know what the prolactin levels need to be. You know, they know, you know which hormonal birth control might be used.

Christie Jo Hendricks:

When I mean some of these things that I don't do all the time, I might have to look some of those things up, but I do know people in my circle that if I need to go to them because I'm just not seeing the results, I have a bunch of colleagues and I think that's important, that we continue to grow. And then, of course, where did you get your training? How have you continued the upkeep of your education? How long have you been doing this? Sometimes that's not a good thing If we've been doing it for a long time but haven't updated our information.

Maranda Bower:

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I feel like this conversation could go on and on, and on. Is there anything else that I should have asked you, that I didn't?

Christie Jo Hendricks:

Oh, wow, this is. This is quite the the topic. I'm so glad we're talking about lactation. I would say that, as an IBCLC, if I have a family member, you know that reaches out to me and I can be there to support them. I am there a hundred percent, and if I have someone from my community, I will tell them. I have plan A, b, c, d. You know I will work as hard at this as you want to work at it, and it's also not all or nothing. You know, if your body as hard at this as you want to work at it, and it's also not all or nothing. You know, if your body's not cooperating and you want to breastfeed but you don't feel like you're having an adequate supply, we can figure out how much you can feed from your body and how much you can supplement. You don't have to give up.

Christie Jo Hendricks:

I also want to say that golden hour, that's just the first hour, that's not the only hour. Some people feel like they gave me an hour and I wasn't successful, so therefore I wasn't able to breastfeed. No, no, no, that's just the first hour. There's nothing else. We're only given an hour to learn and then we take it away. If you don't master it. Can you imagine giving your child a brand new bike and saying, okay, you have one hour, I've started the timer, and then, if we're not skilled and successful, we take that bike away and say, well, we tried, we gave you that. We gave you that 60 minutes way too short of a time. We don't need to give up on our breastfeeding journey or our feeding goals just because we didn't have the results we wanted right away Postpartum postpartum is difficult time. There's a lot of adjustment. There's a lot of things going on Our hormones. You already mentioned you've done a great job explaining that postpartum period and lactation is a piece of that. So thank you so much for letting me share that.

Maranda Bower:

I am just so grateful for all of the work that you are doing. You really are changing the world. You are traveling all over the world, which is one of the reasons why it's been so difficult. You're like, oh, I'm sorry, I'm in Alaska, and I'm like hello. And you're like, oh, wait, hold on, I'm in Australia now. Like you are literally flying out everywhere to provide all of these trainings and do all of this, and I know that you're working on some big projects. Maybe you can share a little bit about what those are and where people can find you.

Christie Jo Hendricks:

Sure, my website is lactationuniversitycom and my goal is to have a streamlined way for people to understand how to become, you know, proficient IBCLCs, not only with learning all of the skills and the clinical aspects of the profession, but also having ways to work on getting those clinical hours. Until now, we've really had very few opportunities to earn clinical hours. We have some great peer programs like La Leche League, breastfeeding Cafe, and I think we need more of those opportunities for people to serve their communities while earning hours to meet the requirements to sit the IBC exam. I also think it shouldn't be a rushed job. I believe becoming a lactation consultant should be more like a marathon than a sprint, so you have opportunity to expose yourself to a lot of things.

Christie Jo Hendricks:

Now there is a timeline, of course. With IBLCE they say you have to have everything completed within five years of applying for the exam, so there is a little bit of urgency, but people that are trying to get this done in nine months, that's really not feasible. And then you wind up being kind of a novice and as soon as you pass that exam you're certified like everyone else that's been doing the work. So I want there to be some proficiency, I want there to be some good communication skills that are mastered and I want there to be be some good communication skills that are mastered and I want there to be introductions to all the things clinical. So that is my goal. I offer the certified lactation educator course, which is a stepping stone credential, or it can be a standalone credential If you just want to teach breastfeeding and you want to be able to help in the area of education, or you can go on and continue and become a clinician as an IBCLC.

Maranda Bower:

I think it's so important to understand that IBCLC is a significant position. Right, you are not only just the work that you're providing and the mother and the child and the family that you're affecting, and really communities as a whole, but the amount of information is so significant and it's consistently changing because we're learning more things. I think the only things that I have found where science is really pushing for and supporting financially is, you know, mental health, in terms of of postpartum and and pregnancy mental health and breastfeeding, which is amazing that we have at least some money going to fund those research projects and we're learning new things all of the time. So thank you so much for all of the services that you provide and we're going to make sure that your links are provided here so anybody who wants to work with you can find you. And again, thank you so much for all the work that you're doing.

Christie Jo Hendricks:

Right back at you. Miranda, thank you for the collaboration, because it's when we all come together that we have a louder voice and we have a stronger presence, and I'm happy to answer any questions that come up in the future and meet with you again, because this has been a wonderful experience.

Maranda Bower:

I am so grateful you turned into the Postpartum University podcast. We've hoped you enjoyed this episode enough to leave us a quick review. And, more importantly, I hope more than ever that you take what you've learned here, applied it to your own life and consider joining us in the Postpartum University membership. It's a private space where mothers and providers learn the real truth and the real tools needed to heal in the years postpartum. You can learn more at wwwpostpartumucom. We'll see you next week.

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