Postpartum University® Podcast

EP 178 Empowering New Moms with Science and Self-Love with Jess Hull

August 20, 2024 • Maranda Bower, Postpartum Nutrition Specialist

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Ever wondered how a high-flying executive from Facebook and Google transitioned into the world of maternal health? Join me, Maranda Bower, as I dive into an inspiring conversation with Jess Hull, the visionary founder of Mother Me. In this episode, Jess shares her deeply personal journey of becoming a mother and how her experiences led her to identify significant gaps in postpartum care. We discuss how her data-driven insights and innovative approach are transforming the landscape for new mothers, integrating scientific data with compassionate, culturally diverse practices.

Check it out on the blog: https://postpartumu.com/empowering-new-moms-science-selflove-jess-hull-178/

Why Listen?

  • Transformative Journey: Discover how Jess Hull’s unique background in tech and her personal experience as a mother of two under two fueled her passion for improving postpartum care. Learn how she’s using data-driven insights to address gaps in maternal health.
  • Empowering Practices: Explore the power of reframing language, the 5-5-5 resting method, and how processing birth stories through handwriting can empower new mothers. We challenge the cultural pressures of "bouncing back" and emphasize the importance of self-love and positive self-talk.
  • Biological Rewiring: Understand how the postpartum period is a time of significant brain rewiring, presenting an opportunity for growth, self-care, and internal validation that’s crucial in the motherhood journey.

What’s In It For You?

This episode offers a deep dive into the intersection of science and self-love in postpartum recovery, blending practical advice with powerful stories of resilience. You’ll gain insights into how integrating scientific data with compassionate care can create a more supportive and effective postpartum experience.

Connect with Jess

 Jess Hull is a former Facebook and Google executive who founded Mother Me, which is an app, online course, and support framework for successful women who want to do more than just survive their postpartum.

Jess approaches her work more from an academic standpoint vs. a clinical perspective. She has done extensive research on matrescence and maternal health and seeks practical solutions that can help busy women.

Connect with J

Tune In Now

Don’t miss this essential episode packed with crucial health information and practical advice. Visit www.postpartumu.com for more details and join us next week for more empowering content. If you found today’s episode helpful, please leave a review and share your thoughts. Your feedback helps us reach more listeners and refine our content. Thank you for your support!

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Maranda Bower:

Depression, anxiety and autoimmune symptoms after birth is not how it's supposed to be. There is a much better way, and I'm here to show you how to do just that. Hey, my friend, I'm Miranda Bauer, a mother to four kids and a biology student turned scientist, obsessed with changing the world through postpartum care. Join us as we talk to mothers and the providers who serve them and getting evidence-based information that actually supports the mind, body and soul in the years after birth. Hey, hey, everyone, welcome to the Postpartum University Podcast. I'm going to tell you I'm so freaking excited about our next guest.

Maranda Bower:

Jess Hull is a former Facebook and Google executive and she had founded Mother Me, which is an app, an online course. It's a really supportive framework for successful women who want to do more than just survive their postpartum. So, of course, when I connected with her, I was like, oh my gosh, I have to have her on the podcast because I talk about these things. She's based on science and data and matrix science, but she also incorporates these global perspectives on how other countries and cultures support postpartum women, their stories and so much more. Just like this beautiful marriage, this beautiful blend coming together, and I was like I'm so excited. We were actually just talking before this podcast. I was like man, we got to get recording because this is good, this is good, jess, welcome.

Jess Hull:

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I definitely agree. Everything you said was soon as I heard you, I was like, oh God, we got to chat, so this is the beginning of a great friendship.

Maranda Bower:

Yes, okay, I have to know. Tell everybody how you kind of got started in this, because you're coming from a completely different angle here, working in corporate.

Jess Hull:

Yeah. So probably like a lot of companies, it's like necessity is the motherhood of invention, like no pun intended, and I set out really to solve my own problem first, not intending to grow it into a business, but you know spoiler alert my problem was the same problem many women face, so that was comforting in the long run. But I originally started the process of researching not only maternal health in terms of like the physical recovery that we go through during pregnancy and postpartum, but really like the emotional and relational challenges that were stumping me after having two kids under two and my husband and I wanted to have a third kid. But we just felt like it was taking such a toll on me, our marriage, you know my body and it just seemed like why am I struggling with this?

Jess Hull:

And kind of, coming from the data background that I have, you know we're really trained to look at data to tell a story and when I started digging into just some of the high level stuff like 90% of women feel unprepared for postpartum, I mean that sounds terrible. But then the flip side of that is 10% of women knew something that helped them. So what did they know? What can be repeated? And that's kind of where I jumped off into this whole new world and learning. Not only you know the physical recovery side, but like we talked about, like what are other countries and cultures doing and what like consistently works well for other people, that can be repeated for other women, you know, even with their different unique circumstances. So, yeah, that was really the beginning of my journey into learning about motherhood.

Maranda Bower:

This is amazing and very similar to my own perspective, right, I love stats, I love data and all the science. I'm coming from a biology background and so that's really what I came into, and I bet you can. You feel the same and that you know that tells such a significant part of the story, but it's also simultaneously missing so much. Did you find that too in your research?

Jess Hull:

Yes, and that's like the breadcrumbs, like it leads us down the path, but there's so much more to fill in and, like we were saying, it's it's really such a fascinating, not only biological event but spiritual, social event, because there's so many emotions throughout the whole process as well. So, yes, I agree, like, the data for me is the foundational element, but then the compassion and connection that needs to be layered on, for me is what really makes the difference between having, you know, an informed recovery, which is great if you have the info but really feeling supported and nurtured, I think makes the difference for a lot of women.

Maranda Bower:

I find that, like all of this information is starting to to come to light in our world, in our society, especially in the United States. You know I'm very biased, living in the United States, so that's what I see, but I'm seeing so much more of women getting the stats, getting the information, but there's a huge disconnect between okay, now I have that information, what do I do with that information? How is that? How is that supporting us? And and oftentimes, what we're doing in our society right now is going back to what we thought or think we know. You know well, here's your medications, here's your therapist and you're good, thumbs up, right, and that's. That's so far from how we need to really be approaching this, and I would love to get your perspective on what you're doing to kind of bridge this gap.

Jess Hull:

Yeah. So I think, like you, hit the nail on the head that info is great, but action is needed. And a lot of times when I'm chatting with women who are maybe curious about my program, they're pregnant. They're like, well, what exactly do you do? Or like, why does this work? And really what I do is bring structure to planning the recovery, because if you wait until after you've had the baby, you're already in the thick of it, and that is how most women end up in survival mode, and when you're in that storm it's really hard to find your way out.

Jess Hull:

But if you know, for example, that you're preparing for a storm, you're going to get your boots ready, you're going to get your jacket, you're going to get your candles, like in case the power goes out.

Jess Hull:

You know you're going to stock up on what you need, so you're ready for anything. And the same is true for, you know, postpartum. So the biggest kind of misconception I think that women have is they know they need action, but they don't always realize that the time to take the action is during pregnancy. And part of that is because you feel crummy during pregnancy, right, you're low energy, you're sort of adjusting to it, especially if it's your first, you're just sort of like tentatively going along. And then there's fun things like the baby shower and preparing the room and getting baby clothes and cute little things like that, which by all means you know are meant to be happy, you know and moments to enjoy. But it doesn't take much to actually set aside time to like, thoughtfully prepare during the pregnancy. It's just that a lot of people don't realize that that's what they need to be doing.

Maranda Bower:

I love that and I think it's so hard oftentimes because not only is pregnancy kind of a time of big emotions and struggle, but our society focused so much on the birth experience. Right If we just get through the birth and we're going to be good.

Jess Hull:

Right, and that's exactly what somebody told me she was like you know, I signed up for this weekend like labor class, like don't you think I'm good? I'm like, well, how long does labor last, how long does postpartum last? You know you're disproportionately spending time on something, that a large part of that experience is out of your control, and so that's again where I really draw attention to the things that we can control. And what are those things? Why do they matter? And the things that we can't control, we move on Like we don't dwell on that.

Jess Hull:

So I think that you know there's again like a focus on the labor being a huge point of anxiety for women, like how am I going to get through that physically? You know they've heard horror stories from friends and family around what actually happens during labor, and you know some of that never even comes to be. So, yeah, I agree, labor sort of is a red herring. So, yeah, I agree, labor sort of is a red herring. It throws off what we actually need to be focused on when the real work and the real quality of the recovery I think happens planning during pregnancy, but then it's how well you take care of yourself in postpartum.

Maranda Bower:

Yeah, yeah, and I want to mention here, like the birth experience itself and the labor is such a huge component of how we enter into postpartum and that deeply affects us from, you know, the medications that we take, the interventions that we have, the way we feel going through that process, if we're supported, and all of those things that really does help transform how we enter into that postpartum in the initial you know phases, how we enter into that postpartum and the initial phases. But also I think what we're saying here is that with that there's also significantly more, and I'd love to hear what that means for you and your programs. What are you doing to help women in those early stages with recovery?

Jess Hull:

Yeah, well, one thing that you just mentioned, which I think is really critical, is processing your birth story, and I don't know if you've seen the study that was done by those Italian researchers where they looked at how women told their birth story. Have you seen that?

Maranda Bower:

I haven't. No, tell me all the things.

Jess Hull:

So it's so cool because basically what these Italian researchers looked at was for women who had a safe space, which they said you know. They gave them instructions and they said just write everything you felt during your birth. And this is. We're not going to read these things, you don't need to show them to anybody, just get it out. And then they, you know they had a test and a control group.

Jess Hull:

So one group of women wrote about their experiences at various times since birth, so like 48 hours, you know, one week, two weeks and so on.

Jess Hull:

And then another group didn't write about them at all and what they found was that the women who processed their birth story through writing had lower rates of postpartum depression.

Jess Hull:

So you know, it's like claiming your feelings about that, like you said, like there's so much that happens and it influences how you feel about motherhood, whether consciously or subconsciously.

Jess Hull:

But for women who especially have had traumatic birth experiences where they feel their agency was compromised or it didn't go as they expected, for whatever reasons it was, or their partner didn't support them the way they wanted to be supported, or things like that, sort of reframing it to more empowering language over time can make a huge difference, and especially for women who end up having like emergency C-sections where again, that was like a crazy stressful curve ball and then they somehow feel like oh, they didn't experience birth naturally Like that's language I don't like to use. Right Like they'll say like oh, they didn't experience birth naturally Like that's language I don't like to use. Right Like they'll say like oh, did you have a natural birth? Or you know it should be vaginal right or C-section. But sometimes people still say that and you know that can be another whole layer to the experience where not only you're recovering a lot differently if you have a C-section, but the way in which you went through that C-section plays a huge part of it too.

Maranda Bower:

So good, so good.

Jess Hull:

But yeah, I know you asked me like a tangent on processing birth stories and, again, the data backed thing, and so that's what I say to you know, the women that I work with is like you might find this silly. You might say, like I don't need to do this. You might say I'm going to text this and no, I want you to follow what the research says, which is, hand write it out and you never need to look at it, you never need to show it to anybody, but that's the best way to process it, and the earlier you know after your birth that you can do that, the better. Um, the second biggest thing that I really spend time focusing on is sort of challenging the idea of like bouncing back and in our culture, where we have this like productivity obsession and busyness obsession and sort of like I want to get back to my pre-baby clothes, back to my old self, back, back, back, right, nothing is forward looking.

Jess Hull:

So when, when we look at rest in the concept of rest, it can be very hard for American women to sit still because we have this ingrained in us of like being lazy and all of that and like the need to be busy, and especially the women I work with, who you know are very successful, high performing women. You know who are very successful, high-performing women, some type A personalities it can be really counterintuitive to rest. So that's where bringing in the global perspective really helps, because in other countries and cultures there's this concept of constructive rest and that means basically intentionally resting your body in different ways. And what I say to women is like doing nothing is doing something, and just because it's invisible, it doesn't mean that you're not doing it. So it's almost like reframing the idea of recovery and being still as something that can help you versus something that you should feel guilt or shame about or like why aren't I bouncing back? It's like take a minute, properly recover, and I don't know, have you heard about the concept of, like the 5-5-5 resting method?

Maranda Bower:

Oh, yeah, yeah, but explain it to everybody else who might be listening and might not know.

Jess Hull:

Sure. So basically it's, you know, in the first two weeks or so after birth, where you're at a very vulnerable time physically for your recovery, um, spending the first five days in the bed like not moving around pretty much at all. And that's because you want, like the invisible, like fibers of your body basically to knit back together. And you don't realize it because you might have, like you know, highs of oxytocin or like adrenaline rush and there's so much excitement and you're maybe still the meds are still clearing themselves out of your system. So you may not feel the pain in the moment but you don't realize that you're actually kind of damaging your longer term recovery. And then the next five days are on the bed, so moving around slightly more. You know you're feeling a little bit better, but we still don't really want you doing too much of anything, you know. And then the last five days of this five, five, five are around the bed. So really, you know, moving up around your room a little bit, feeling a little bit more comfortable, a little bit more healed.

Jess Hull:

But you know, so often we see women, you know, four or five days after giving birth, out at a restaurant and you're like, you know, I get it that you want to go out and have a little bit of freedom back. But I find like especially from sort of like the ancient Chinese cultures, where they have like the first 40 days of really true confinement and rest, we downplay here in the US just how much rest is actually needed. So I think that's always helpful to share that perspective with people because it really kind of blows their mind, because so much of American culture is like oh, she's back on her feet, she's up at the grocery store, she's doing this, she's fine, she just had a baby, she's a champ, and it's like we don't need that.

Maranda Bower:

It's often the thing that I see to be one of the hardest pieces of recovering from the postpartum period, and this is something that I struggled with too. I think our brains are so used to being on all the time. We've got to do stuff. We got to move through, we got to, you know, go, go, go, go go. It's a very masculine approach to living, dare I say it doesn't, really it doesn't work in the postpartum period. And I, you know, I'm the A type I run a multi six figure company, right. I love being in this space and constantly doing things and succeeding, like I have lists and goals and like that is my nature, that's what I do, and so many of the people that I work with are also the same way.

Maranda Bower:

It was actually funny, cause we were I was just on a retreat. I flew out to Austin and did a mastermind with this incredible group of moms who are CEOs. So this is these are seven eight figure women, right, and all owning their own business, all moms. And one of the moms was like, yeah, you know, her baby's six months. And she's like I think I'm taking a sabbatical. And I was like no, honey, you're taking postpartum leave. Like, like no, you, you need likepartum leave. Like, no, you need like just to take some maternity leave, like that's what it is right. And she was like, oh my God, like that's exactly what I need. But in our world, in our society, like this constant go, go, go, it's almost it's so foreign and we have this push right. If you're not succeeding, if you're not moving, then you're failing.

Maranda Bower:

Right.

Jess Hull:

Yeah, I know, and that's again where, like, I even feel the term like constructive rest is empowering for women in that way, because there is such, you know, subconscious or cultural guilt around slowing down or taking care of yourself. And it's such a silly thing, especially when you think about it in the context of children, like some of the women who I've worked with who have toddlers right they're in the nap stage. I'm like imagine if you told your toddler like, hey, just suck it up, power through, you don't need a nap. Like you would never right, like this is a child listening to their body and you know you grow when you sleep.

Jess Hull:

Right, like there's power and stillness and I just think that it's something that we know but we have silenced over time. Um, and even like looking at the like natural world, something I love to do, just I'm just inclined that way but it's like when you think about seasons and I'm based in new England and you know the trees and the leaves falling off the trees and like the power of winter, um, you know that's when the growth is actually starting. So I think that, again, like there's power in stillness and, um, it's time to like reclaim that, especially in, you know, the motherhood space.

Maranda Bower:

Beautiful. Okay, I know I interrupted you. You have to, you have. You have another one, right? I mean, I have a million.

Jess Hull:

I'm like I never even like prepare my top three, because it's always like, in the moment, what, what do we feel? But you know, we had a little bit on on physical, we had a little bit on mental, and I think another huge dimension that is often overlooked is preparing your relationship, and this is something that, again, I hear so often from women in my early work with them. When I ask them how they're feeling about it, they're like well, my partner's great. I'm like that's awesome. Is he well-versed in what happens to a woman's brain, body and identity as she becomes a mother? Okay, so we forget that the dads are also going through a major transition as well, also going through a major transition as well, and oftentimes the qualities that make somebody a good, you know, boyfriend or partner and then husband, are very different from what is required in terms of being a good supportive partner through this life stage. So, like I again working with a lot of corporate women using corporate language, I'm like some of these skills are transferable, but some of them we need to up-level right, Like you're all getting a promotion here. There's gonna be new responsibilities required. So, you know, you have the foundation, which is great, but even the happiest of couples in marriages still dramatically struggle through this transition.

Jess Hull:

And again going back to the data, the Gottman Institute tells us that 70% of couples experience a decline in relationship satisfaction after becoming parents. So what I say to that is some people are not owning up to it, Like that number is too low. Right, that has to be much higher in my book, because it is the majority of people who feel blindsided at how they've sort of woken up in this roommate stage. Maybe resentment is starting to show up and you really experience it very differently, Not only, of course, the physical things, but how society treats you, how you know if your child is at daycare and they get sick, who do they call first? Mom, who has to leave work after coming back from maternity leave? Mom, like I've been on business trips out of state and they'll call me and I'm like call his father, he's closer.

Jess Hull:

So you know, I think baby proofing the relationship, as cheesy as that sounds, is something that I spend a lot of time on, because there are conversations around 10 or so key issues that all couples universally go through that are not a sign of the quality of your relationship. They're just a sign of the transition you're going through. So again going back to kind of like the eye of the storm. Analogy is if you're prepared for them and you're anticipating, how will we react if and when we get in this situation? You're gonna have a much calmer approach, a more unified approach, than if you're like then, faced in the heat of the moment of like well, why do they always call me I'm pissed about this, you know, like I'm mad at you versus solving the problem together. So you have a joint plan going into it.

Maranda Bower:

I love this. You talk a lot about resentment and tension within the relationship during this transition too, and I think that goes hand in hand and really you know, quote unquote baby proofing your marriage right or baby proofing your relationship, and something that I see so frequently is that resentment piece.

Jess Hull:

What do you think is like one of the biggest things that women resent?

Maranda Bower:

Yeah, I really you know when, when working with women over the last 15 years, there's there's three components. They resent their relationship, not getting enough support, not getting the support that they need. Right, always feeling like they're it and it's everything. Resenting their baby we don't talk about this enough, right, resenting their baby? For you know, you can love your baby and resent your baby at the same time, like those are two dualities that we can hold simultaneously, mainly for the demands that it takes on your life, how it's taken away you, away from what you love or what you know to be true of who you are. You have shifted so much and in motherhood, I think we are in a space of change. Right, you're in your you know, if we relate it to the caterpillar and the butterfly, you're in the cocoon.

Jess Hull:

Right.

Maranda Bower:

You know, and that's a really hard, dark place to be in and you don't know what's on the other side and we don't give ourselves the opportunity to rest and recover in that cocoon because we're so busy trying to fight our way out to that, to become that butterfly, right, right, and oftentimes we resent our babies for putting us there in that space and resent our partners for not supporting us through that difficult time. And then resentment toward ourselves. And I think that one is so key and often, again, not talked about. If I just rested, if I just knew these things, if my body just worked well, right, and my body failed me, I failed me. And it's no, no, no, no, no. That's society has failed you. No one taught you these things, no one's talking about these things. You had no earthly idea what was, what was about to transpire, because postpartum is often you know I say this all the time it's like the secret club and you're not invited until you're already in the throws and by then oftentimes it feels like it's too late.

Jess Hull:

Yes, yeah, yeah, no, I think you're spot on with that and I mean I see so much mom guilt and like self negative, self-talk and it. It breaks my heart because it really doesn't serve the woman and it certainly doesn't serve the child or serve the woman and it certainly doesn't serve the child or serve the relationship. And again, I think that's where, like, we're almost programmed to be that way and so it's almost unlearning a lot of those things. And like, again, sort of a silly thing that I do with a lot of the women that I work with is, you know, talking to yourself the way you would talk to a child and being proud of yourself for doing what may seem like very small things but actually in the context of where you're at in your life, they're huge. And telling yourself every day you're proud of yourself and for the things that you wish you did differently. You know what there's always tomorrow and you know, when you know better, you do better. And you just can't dwell on the times when you didn't have all the information. But you know, at the time you, you made an informed decision based on what you knew and now you know more. So now you can do better and you sort of have to um retrain, I think, your brain around a lot of that.

Jess Hull:

Because self-love for me that is like the biggest piece of the puzzle to all of it and I've been lucky my whole life where I've always had deep self-love.

Jess Hull:

That you know, before I even knew the term for it, honestly. But I've known that I'm never going to be the best this or the most that and I've never really felt that urge to compare myself to others because I'd just been like the best version of me. But I think in the process of becoming a mother that even if you've had that, it's still shaken. You know it's still a very vulnerable transition and there's moments of self doubt and you know you need encouragement. And it's like in the context of wedding planning, like people will always say like oh, my God, it's such a beautiful wedding, or this and that, or you looked great and people will give you more praise for how you planned a party than they will on how you have become a mother. You know like you don't get a lot of external praise for how you mother children and how you take care of yourself. So it's really important to give yourself that praise in the absence or in addition to whatever external praise you get.

Maranda Bower:

A thousand percent, Because when we start looking at neurobiology and how your brain is literally being rewired in the postpartum period for two solid years or more right, it takes two years for your brain to be rewired and you don't have any control over it. It is going to happen to you. It is part of the postpartum experience and oftentimes what we do is we're the way we talk to ourselves is supporting that rewiring, so we can rewire our way into self care and and self love in a way that we've never experienced before. But it has to come from the way we are communicating with ourselves in our heads. Right, the way you are, the things that you're saying to yourself, the things that you're thinking, and it starts during this postpartum period. It's a beautiful thing.

Jess Hull:

Yeah, and like the CEO conference you were just at, or like the other successful women that I've worked with too, like they're very confident in other dimensions of their lives and they've had experience doing things that are objectively very hard, right, like you know getting a job at Google, becoming a CEO, growing your own business, whatever it is. They've faced so much adversity in their lives but they're like, yeah, but I knew I could do it, like I, they don't even let themselves have that moment, which they should, but you know, they sort of downplay it and then motherhood throws them for a huge curve ball because so much is outside of their control and they feel like that chaos is a reflection of themselves and, in reality, like they have again. This is really like the transferable skills, like they have a little bit of that skillset. It's just getting them to see it and use it in a different context.

Jess Hull:

You know, when I worked at Facebook, one of the sayings is like feedback is a gift, right, and it was like this constant culture of feedback and improving and what you can do and, very objectively, like what you did well and what you do differently next time, and it's quick and it's fast and you don't dwell on it.

Jess Hull:

And it's sort of the same thing you need to keep in mind, because every day there's a thousand decisions you've made as a mother and you don't even realize how well you've made 950 of those decisions. But you're just going to beat yourself up over the 50 that you agonized over and maybe would have done differently. But you know there's so much to celebrate and like a trick that I use for myself and encourage others is like habit stacking. So like every day there are things that you do right, like you brush your teeth twice a day, every day, without fail. But like, while you're brushing your teeth, can you think about something that you did that you're like fuck, yeah, I killed that. Sorry, if we can't swear, you can bleep that out.

Jess Hull:

Oh, you're good, you're good, like you know, like pep yourself up, like you know when you're doing other things that you have a minute to your mind to do something else and can you stack that habit that you already do with something else. That's going to improve your life. So, like my husband and I, if we're brushing our teeth at the same time, sometimes we use that as a moment of like, admiration and affection for each other. If I'm by myself, I'm thinking about things where I'm like, hey, great job, jess, you know, like you didn't do it perfectly, but you did it and that's what counts Training your brain to do it versus thinking like, oh, I never find time to do this, like it doesn't need to be a deep moment of reflection, it can just be part of your every day, and tying it to something else that you already do every day is a great way to put that into your routine and make sure it sticks.

Maranda Bower:

I love this. This is gorgeous, jess. You are a wealth of information and you have an app, you have an online course, all of this. Where can people find your information and dig deeper with you?

Jess Hull:

Yeah, my Instagram is the best way to reach me. It's at mothermeio so you can send me a DM happy to chat with you on there and usually for people who want one-on-one support, we jump on a call, kind of talk through your personal situation and what your goals are and then, if I'm confident that I can help you get there, then we can kick off working together. But, yeah, instagram at mothermeio is the best way to reach me.

Maranda Bower:

Ah, beautiful. And of course, we're going to have all of those links and you can go learn even more about all of the stuff that she's teaching, what she's doing and and really get some support there. So thank you, jess. Oh my gosh, this has been amazing. Thanks for having me there. So thank you, jess. Oh my gosh, this has been amazing. Thanks for having me. I am so grateful you turned into the Postpartum University podcast. We've hoped you enjoyed this episode enough to leave us a quick review and, more importantly, I hope more than ever that you take what you've learned here, applied it to your own life and consider joining us in the Postpartum University membership. It's a private space where mothers and providers learn the real truth and the real tools needed to heal in the years postpartum. You can learn more at wwwpostpartumucom. We'll see you next week.